Hello, and welcome back to the show. So today I have another exciting guest for you today. I am picking the amazing brain of Nora Wolf. Nora has been running her boutique, New York based public relations shop Wolf PR since 2011. And she's worked with in the, in her time global brands like Herman Miller and Kickaland

resident and zigzag Zurich on their strategy to get, get into publications like Asquire, apartment therapy, cool hunting, Buzzfeed dwell wired, and so many more suffice to say she is the expert at getting product brands and design brands into the great publications. So today what we're gonna be talking about is why PR is an essential part of your marketing mix for eCommerce.

about how it should never be your only tool, the importance of great photography in getting U PR placements. Why you should put yourself in the journalist's shoes to ensure your pitch gets attention and coverage, how your sustainability or diversity efforts can increase your chance of coverage. Why you must read the publications in your industry, why you should set up alerts for your, for the coverage.

Of your competitors to see what they're up to, how to leverage your sales, to get in bigger publications sales, as in your discount periods, how to plan ahead to get coverage for the peak gifting season, which is coming up now, the part affiliate networks play in helping you get coverage really key. Big change that's happened in the last few years.

And then finally, how influencer marketing has become part of the PR process and why you should pay for this, for the content that this brings and how this can be really useful. So welcome to the show, Nora.

My first question for you is should brands do their own PR or should they always engage a PR firm or, or is there some kind of in between option? How do you think about that for brands? Whether they're early stage or more established? Yeah, it's a great question. And I think. You know, I run, so I run to give a little background.

I run two PR firms. One is called Wolf PR and we do full service retainer PR. So everything that needs to be done as far as reaching out to the media, we handle. And then I also run a second PR firm that I started right during the pandemic. I wanted to make myself even crazier during a crazy time and start another company

And so that one's called Wolf craft and that one is a little bit more centered around DIY. And so I have a lot of expertise on like, who makes a good candidate for both approaches. If you're a grown up company and you have a reasonable budget, there is no reason why you shouldn't take this off your plate.

This is absolutely something that can get delegated out. And the value of a good PR firm is that they understand the media landscape. They know when your industry's trade events are coming up, they know. The perfect timing of the media. So they can say, okay, you need your high risk images. By this time you need to give us these kind of product descriptions, your quote, it doesn't work for us.

Like let's push back and get, get you to give us a better quote. So that way, when we reach out, we have the right information. So if you have a budget, you want a PR firm that like has established relationships, but also underst. The rhythm of the industry and they're gonna position you. Well, the other thing is in my industry, not all industries, but in my industry, I am very friendly with other design publicists.

And so we share opportunities together all the time. So you're also not just getting my network, but you're getting like other folks networks too. So that's something that really benefit. Our long term clients, however, that's not the right fit. If you have one product launch a year, if you have a really small budget and making that spend doesn't yet make sense.

If you know you like, content's a really big thing, but if you don't have the budget to create content year round, why would you have a year round retainer? So there are other considerations. That makes having a full-time PR firm, maybe not the best choice for you. And in that case, DIY is a really excellent way to move forward.

And that's why I started Wolf craft is because there's so many incredible companies out there and. Smaller houses, smaller designers who are doing things that I think are actually very media worthy and contribute to a larger conversation in our industry. But maybe they only have something to say twice a year, which is fine.

It's not like a worse outcome and they should be saying it, but they should be paying for that big of a budget item if it's not appropriate for where they are. So, yeah, I think there are good choices for both. Yeah. So tell me about Wolf craft. I'm fascinated. Does. How does it work in terms of the support that you.

Your brands. So it started with this really persistent and lovely jewelry designer. Who's like, I just want you to do my PR. And I was like, I, I can't like, you're not ready for this. And she's like, well, you teach me. And I was like, yes, I will. So this is before I started both crap. This was just, I would do phone calls with her every other week.

and give her homework to help her understand her industry, her media landscape, understand what her peers are doing, what her photography should look like. She actually had really good photos, but there were a few that needed to be tightened up a little bit. She wanted to do a re a reshoot and. Understand what outlets were writing, what things, so that way she could pitch them appropriately.

So that's actually something that I've turned into one on one consulting, and I still do that, but my best friend from undergrad. So I went to art and design school in Chicago.  and one of my friends from there is still my closest friend. So she came on as a part, a partner, and we've expanded beyond that significantly.

So we do that. We do something called tweak and edit where we'll look at your digital properties and evaluate them and kind of give like a formal critique with next steps on what you should be doing on anything that's public facing, not for necessarily like SEO optimization, not necessarily for. Like very technical conversion, but for storytelling.

So like we're for the human eyeballs, not the computer eyeballs that are looking at it. A computer can get a person onto your website, but then if they don't like it, or it's hard to use, they're still gonna fall off. So we look at it for that storytelling element. And then the other thing that we do that we're really proud of is we do much bigger strategy.

Pieces. So if you're like, I don't quite wanna do everything on my own. I don't wanna do all the research on my own, but I do wanna execute it on my own. We will give kind of a breakdown of like, here's who you should be talking to. Here's what your peers are doing. Here's like an overall landscape and the next six months of activity you should execute on.

Here are the email addresses. Here's like what an email template looks like. So we'll kind of like hand a strategy over and then our clients will execute on that. So it's kind of a spectrum of like very DIY to like quasi DIY. Interesting. Cool. So switching tech a little bit. Sure. Do you think PR is essential to, to the success of an eCommerce or product, a product brand brand in 2020?

I think it's a critical part of an overall program. I've had folks come up to me and say, you know, we really think PR is the thing that's gonna like push us over the edge and make it make our year successful. And that always horrify me. It's like, it's one part of a really, it's a very important part dedicated my entire professional career.

I don't wanna talk badly about it, but you cannot put all your eggs in a PR basket. That doesn't, that's not smart for taking any part of a strategy and putting all your eggs in that basket. But I do think it's crucial and I do believe a good PR strategy is a good business strategy. If your photos don't work for PR odds are, they're not gonna like work for your client, your customer.

If you're selling jewelry of terrible photos, no one wants to spend $500 on a poorly photographed earring, for example. So like everything kind of links together. But yeah, a great write up in a well respected publication can really change the game for a client. So I think it's important. . Yeah. And it's so much more than just, they got that article and someone read that article.

Isn't it? It's like when you, it's a, it's a asset that you can leverage. Mm-hmm  in so many other different ways that we were talking before we started recording. And you talked about how it can be part of your pitch deck. It can be on your homepage. It can be on the product page. It could be quoted, could be quoted in an ad.

I mean, we, as an E. Media buying agency. We're always looking for brands, you know, assets like this that we can leverage in the ads that we can leverage on the landing pages. So I would agree like we, when we are looking at whether a brand is gonna be a good partner for us and whether they're gonna grow, we are looking at, do they have a PR strategy?

Have they started to get good coverage and good publications? This is like a form of social proof. So yeah, I would totally agree. Absolut. So if a, if a brand is working with you or doing it themselves, whatever way they're kind of approaching it, what makes a good pitch for, to get in a, in a great publication in your view?

Yeah. So one of the things that I'm really into is empathy and kind of understanding who is receiving the pitch. And so if we think about, at least in the north America, And I think also Europe is very aligned with this media is shrinking and the folks who are doing it.  they love it, but they are not paid very well.

Mm-hmm  they are receiving, you know, 500 pitches a week mm-hmm  and most of them are poorly written and they're sifting through it and they have an obligation to their editor and they have a obligation to their obligation, to their publisher and their readership to like surface. The best stuff. So people will continue to have a subscription, continue to give them those cl clicks that they need to like show proof to the people who buy ads.

They have certain obligations and their obligations are not to me, the person sending a pitch, like I'm the lowest. On their hierarchy of needs totem pole. And so what I try and do is give them the things that they need to put together, a beautiful magazine, a beautiful blog post, whatever it is, make their life really easy.

So I wanna show them right off the bat. Most of our clients make a product. And so I want them to see the pictures of the product so that they know what they have to work with immediately. Cuz they're putting together basically a picture book. Right. Like, we're not doing political PR here. It's not like saving medical devices.

Like it has to be an aesthetic moment for the industry that I work in. I want them to understand the value props right, right away, but not in a sales way. Like they don't need to be sold this product. They need to understand why it's relevant to their readership. So it's a little tweak, but it's really important for them because they're not buy, they're not buying all the stuff that's getting pitched to them.

Right. They have these small budgets. These are the things that really. Can make or break a pitch. It's not like, Hey, it would mean so much to me. If you publish my article cuz or publish my piece in your article, they don't care. But if you're like, Hey, I noticed that you write a lot about, you know, jewelry and young designers.

I'm a young jewelry designer and here is my work and here's some photos and here's something to more and here's my Instagram. And here's like four things that you should know about me. Goodbye. Quick easy and you gave them everything they need to know right off the bat. So I think that's, you know, being empathetic about who the people are, is the most important.

Thing. I have a lot of clients being like, why am I answering these questions? Aren't they the writer? And I'm like, they're doing this for free. Like you are only an ad, so you better bend over backwards to meet their needs.  yes. The easier you make it for them, the more likely they're gonna run with what you've got, because yes, it's gonna make their job of creating dozens of articles a day so much easier.

Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Cool. So. So you put together great images you put together, like you, you reach out to the person as a human in a really empathetic way. Are you coming up with like an actual story angle for them or is it not quite that level or does that sometimes work? Yeah, I mean, we can't write the story for them and that's something.

Is worth mentioning here is like, we give them the information and if they choose to include it, they're allowed to say whatever they want, because we are not buying that space in the publication. What we're doing. Yeah. A new vocabulary word, maybe for some of the listeners is earned editorial, which means the placement.

is earned based on its merits. Not mm-hmm , we're not buying anything. So we can't really control what they say. And depending on the ego of the writer, they either love receiving it like spoonfed or they hate it cuz they wanna make their own choices about how they feel. But we do try and give them the things that we know.

Excuse me are compelling to that publication or that writer or that editor's point of view. So some things that have become more and more important, thankfully in recent times, especially in the last two and a half years have been things that contribute meaningfully to sustainability initiatives. You can't just be like we try and do our best when we can, like, that's not cutting it anymore, but if you have.

Actual metrics to backup sustainability initiatives. They wanna know that if your company is founded by a woman or not a white person or not a man, like these are, these are the things that editorial people generally wanna see and promote more of. And so if we know that our clients. Have some of those things we lead with it.

If we have like a great story behind how it was manufactured, we'd lead with that. If we have a really interesting inspiration story, we lead with that. So kind of anything that we know that, that, that point of view is going to be compelling will help us get our foot in the door. Yeah. And in order to be successful at PR, like what should, what should the founder be like reading?

What should they be thinking about? Like what, what are some things they could be doing to ensure they kind of help you as the PR agency to do, do a better job? I love this question. So many of our  like so many onboarding or, you know, client discovery calls. I'm like, Hey, what publications do you wanna be in?

And they're like, oh, you know, I don't know. Horrifying.  like, or we'll be like, we wanna be in the New York times. And like the New York times kind of has a design section, but they got rid. The section that most of them would be in like four years ago, five years ago. Like it's not, it doesn't exist anymore.

So it just shows that they're like, they don't have an idea of their goals. So if you want, and I don't think this is just for PR, I think this is good advice for anyone who's running a business. If you wanna be successful in your industry, you have to read the publications that your industry relates to.

Both trade and consumer facing publications. And if you're not reading them, you don't know what people are saying. You don't know what's currently relevant. You don't understand like the trends that you can tap into. And I think it makes you like a worse designer leader and that at understanding the PR landscape as well.

So yeah, absolutely. Right. You should be. Happening in your industry. That would be like me not reading what was happening in, you know, in paid social and Google ads.  100%. So yeah, I think yeah, reading is really important, not just for PR, but for PR as well. Yeah. Yeah. And so do you often find like your, your dream client would be someone who's actually feeding you ideas, like, or like is seeing stuff or is it always gonna come from you, but you're just wanting them to read it so that they have an awareness of the industry?

Yeah. I mean, I read so much for my job, but I am not infallible. I also have, you know, 24 hours just like everyone. So if someone says, there's this really cool interview about a competitor, why, you know, can we get this? And they send it to me and I have never seen that particular column, or I hadn't heard of this competitor, whatever it is that helps me do my job better, because then I can set my alerts to track that I can like, think about what this column needs and make sure I get those assets or that information from our client and try and pitch them.

So, yeah, I love that. I think, you know, I think.  if you're an insecure publicist, it makes you feel worse, but I am not. I know there are things that like , I can't, I can't see all the things, although I think I see most of the things it's very nice when a client comes to us with requests like this. Yeah.

That's awesome. So that kind of leads quite nicely to my next question, which is how do you follow your competition from a kind of PR perspective? Like, and how should you be following what your competition's up to so that you can stay ahead of the, a step ahead of. Yeah, I think that's the, one of the most important things you can do in, in our industry.

So in yield times, we use Google alerts. We use Google alerts until about two, three years ago, and that works fine. So we track our clients. We also track the top five competitors or peers of our clients. Now we have some fancy software called mudra that costs a lot of money and I don't think people should get it unless they are other also PR companies.

Yeah. Mudra has a lot of other things in addition to tracking, but we use it for tracking as well. Mm-hmm  but Google works works really well and everyone should track their peers and see what they're doing. And who's writing about them.  yeah, you got me thinking, I need to get my competitors on the,

you know, you just stumble across stuff and like, damn. How did they do that? Awesome. Yeah. Okay. And how, what does that bring? It just makes sure that you are, you are seeing which, which journalists are covering them. It might give you spark ideas for content. What are the other reasons why you might do it?

I'll give you an example. One of the things that we do that.  less glamorous, but something that really helps our clients is we get our clients sales in publications that write about sales. So, you know, labor day sale, black Friday, cyber Monday, like if you guys are doing a sale, you tell us and we get it out there into all those roundups of what you can buy now.

I publications do this all the time. New publications spread out that do sales. We don't always know, but if I'm tracking the competitors and they might be getting in those sales, oh, here's someone that we've never pitched for sale before they go on our sales list. Now we know that they cover those sort of things.

So that's a really kind of like funny unglamorous. It's like, it's not really storytelling. It's just like, you can get things 25% off for the next three days, but it really moves the needle for our clients. So that's an example of how we've used those alerts. That's so interesting. That's such a good tactic.

Isn't it to like, yeah. Yeah. Cuz we, our clients run sales all the time and I'm not sure that they're doing proactive PR to get those sales a wider reach than what we're doing with the ads. That's awesome. And then, you know, any, any, any press mention is as seen in after that, so. Totally. Yep.  cool. So. Now that actually talking of sales, that brings me to my next question, which is we have something a small kind of time of year coming up pretty soon.

So you've mentioned, you've mentioned before that, that the holidays are a huge time for PR pushes and it's a great time to leverage PR. So do you wanna talk to me about what brands should be doing to really make the most of the holiday peak season and how PR can be part of that strategy? Okay. So tiny plug with Wolf craft.

We do have a course about how to pitch for holiday gift guides, but I will talk about it holistically. As well right now. So we at Wolf PR will start pitching for our clients in late June, early July. We will start initial outreach and that is for long lead print nationals. So that is something that's a publication that you would see at any airport newsstand in your resident country.

So most print publications that are national. Take about three or four months, sleep time for holidays. They take about six months sleep time. And the reason for that is it's just a bigger lift. They're usually calling in product or they're organizing, you know, triple the amount of product that they might normally do.

Or for example, like men's health, I don't pitch men's health. 11 months out of the year, my clients don't make like workout gear for men, whatever it is, but we know that one month, a year they're publishing things you can buy for your wife, things you can buy for your kids, things for the kitchen, things to buy the sh you know, whatever.

So. They are hiring behind the scenes staff to manage this influx of pitches that they don't manage 11 months out of the year. So that's why the lead time starts so much earlier. So then we do print regional, which again, the lead time extends usually print regional regionals, like two months out. So we usually do about four months out.

And then if this is coming out at the end of September, early October, We start right around that time as well, with reaching out to digital gift guides and some newspapers as well, and digital gift guide pitching, we will do throughout the rest of the year, basically until right up before Christmas for anything that's like a quick ship or a brick and mortar moment.

So yeah, that's kind of the timeline. And again, going back to what I was saying, you have this opportunity to pitch. More product because all these publications are covering a lot more than they normally do. And you have the opportunity to pitch a broader swath of publications that you wouldn't work with 11 months outta the year.

So you're getting extra audience, you're getting extra opportunities. I'm sure that you and your audience know about affiliate link networks. And how to like, engage with those. So publications, especially on the digital side are hyper incentivized to publish a ton more because they're getting profit from all the link click throughs.

So there's just, if you're gonna do one thing for the whole year, that's PR related, it should be holiday gifting because you just get more opportunities than you do the rest of the year. Yeah. Yeah. Cause they're talking about products and gifting. So much more that they're willing to yeah. Wider than that.

Yeah. So, I mean, I do know about affiliate link networks, but do you wanna just speak briefly to that for listeners who are new as PR and might be wondering what that is? Yep. So basically you can think about it in these two ways. It's either like a referral. So if I made a sale and publication X drove the customer to my website and giving them, you know, some referral money.

And, or you could think of it as like profit sharing. So mm-hmm  they referred me and then I'd give them a piece of the profit. And so there are a couple of established networks that do this. And at this point, publications used to maybe a decade ago. And before that make all their money from. Pages in a publication, they would sell a page of advertising and that's how they made their money.

And then it became like banner ads on a blog or their, you know, when magazines had like kind of crappy versions of online things in the web web, just in general is less sophisticated than it is. And those aren't worth the same thing that they were now. So now publications, revenue is putting a cookie into that link and setting a duration for usually 30 days.

And if I. Through that link and buy those shorts, buy that like blender, whatever it is, the publication gets a kickback and that's kind of how it works on a very rudimentary scale. Yeah. So as the brand, you have to be signed up to one of these networks in order to. To be, to be able to give them the kickback.

So they're gonna be prioritizing talking about brands that are part of the scheme, right. Versus ones that aren't, because they're gonna make money from the ones that are yes. Which like this isn't the podcast for that. We could have another conversation at the ethics and like journalistic integrity there.

I also think that this will continue to change. Like apple is already putting pretty big restrictions on how cookies work and like what you can and can't track. And as privacy laws change, this will change. So anticipate that landscape continuing to evolve. But this year, You need them . Yeah. And we didn't, none of our clients were on an affiliate links network before the pandemic.

So in two years it's changed where we will not work with them if they don't get on one of these networks and they still need to be selected E editorially, it just shrinks the editorial pool to brands who have these. So it's, it's not advertising, it's not guaranteed, but it just gives you a little bit more of an M to get selected, like a foot in the door.

Yeah. So. And the process to sign up to an affiliate network. I imagine it's fairly straightforward. Right? You you'd sign up, pay some kind of fee and then mm-hmm,  you get listed in a directory type thing. Yep. And they're also taking, you know, their percent or whatever from it as well. So yeah, again, ethics, you have to be a brand that like can afford to do this kind of profit sharing, but if you want PO yeah.

That's part of the game right now, part of the game. That's so interesting. Yeah. Cool.  and another part of the game, I think now for PR is influencer marketing. And I noticed that it's, it has been PR agencies more so really than media agencies paid media, sorry, media buying agencies like myself that have branched into influencer marketing.

So. Is that the case for you? And is that something that you see continuing as a trend that influence the marketing sits under PR and becomes sort of blurred with PR? Or how do you see the whole world of influencer at the money? 10 in the future? Yeah. It's such a good question. There's so many different ways to answer it.

So I'm gonna just talk about kind of. How we deal with it, which isn't necessarily how the next influencer brand or influencer network might deal with it, or the next PR firm will deal with it. So I'm just gonna kind of give our point of view on how we handle it. Yeah. So I really think influencers are like a wonderful opportunity for brands for a couple of reasons.

Sometimes you can work with them purely on earned basis. Like if they like the product enough, maybe you just send them the product and they will write about it. That is becoming less of a thing. And so just like, it is not the same thing as just pure editorial pitching. I should say that. What I think is really great is you're basically hiring like a cadre of photographers that are going to make content for you.

And so if you just think about it through the one point of view of, I want them to post to their network, you're not gonna really get what you need out of that relationship. But if you're like, I want them to post to their network. And then I want them to also give me like five or six assets that I can use for my advertising, for my social media, for my newsletter.

All of a sudden you can eliminate perhaps a photo shoot out of your line, out of your budget and allocate that towards influencer engagement and set. And if you work with, you know, 10 15, 25 influencers a month, a quarter, whatever your budget and bandwidth allow. For all of a sudden you're getting massive amounts of content.

And what we know is customers like content, and you have to kind of like always be bringing them like a new picture of something to remain relevant. And so you're getting access to their audience, but you're also getting access to incredible content. And I know we. A little bit offline about white labeling, but you can also white label through this influencer and do an advertising that goes through their stories feed or through their post feed to their audience as well.

So it becomes a really great thing to leverage what you really have to think of it dynamically. And I think too many people still are thinking about as just like they are amplifying it one time to their audience, which. Yeah, I think it is, you know, too narrow. Yeah.  and they're like tracking it and then if it didn't generate the best return on ad spend, then it's not worth pursuing.

Yeah. So yeah. So white labeling is definitely like a big trend in our industry. Well, both your industry and my industry. Yep. So, and for those listeners, that dunno what it is, it's where you, if you have a relationship with an influencer and they've created some content, you know, that they've put out on their.

Organic channel you're actually then using their, their page to run paid ads, but as if they're from the brand, so it looks like it still says sponsored, but it looks more like an organic post. So because it's from this. From this influences page. So not from their brand, sorry, from their person from their personality.

So it seems more credible and reliable than, and trustworthy than a brand saying, Hey, look, I'm great. It's someone else saying the brand is great. So it's really powerful as a technique.  and I definitely encourage, yeah. If you're doing stuff that influences test out, running some ads from their, from their profile as well, you'd probably have to pay them more and, and, and, you know, have a contract with them that, that, that allows that.

But yeah, it's definitely something to try. Is that something you, you, as a PR agency kind of broker with your client, you know, for your clients that work with their media buying agency to get that set up, or how does that work from your end? We manage most of the contracts. Our client, we have worked with outside ad folks too, or they'll work with like a marketing consultant.

Excuse me. So we'll work with that marketing consult. It's a little bit hybrid. Like I said, it's not pure editorial pitching, but generally they want us to have manage the relationship side and then we will loop in whoever to manage the contract. Sometimes we manage the contract. We're, we're doing less of that, especially as the need comes up.

Like if you're doing 10 contracts a quarter, no problem. That's not too big of a lift. If you're doing 10 contracts a week, like we are, you know, that's not our bandwidth, that's not our expertise. Yeah. So it really depends on the need of the. . Mm. Okay. Interesting. And typically, would you, would a client, would it be part of that contract for a client, a brand to have kind of the right to use those assets as ads from their own channel as well?

Or would that not be something that would typically be expected to be part of an arrangement? Yep. It's generally anticipated. It's something that you can buy, right? So same as if you're buying pictures from a photographer, you have certain licensing agreements and you can license to use them for only a newsletter, no use at all, except personal use to like very wide reaching commercial use.

So like that. Those exact same conversations are having with influencer. There really are like many photography studios in a lot of ways. Yeah. So true. I mean, it's a huge trend that we've seen, I guess, this year.  it's really blown up. It's the whole kind of concept of creator made content. Mm-hmm  that's, you know, TikTok style advertising.

That's from the point of view of the creator, not the point of view of the brand. Yep. It's the kind of first person experience of the product. That type of content has really blown up. Both on the organic side, but also on the paid media side. So actually taking that content and running it as an ad mm-hmm  and then it leads it to actually, you need to create the creator to create it in a more ad, like way, but still in an organic way.

So it's slightly different from what they might have posted on their own channel. So we are really seeing that trend and like looking at ways we can help brands yeah. To kind of figure that out, which is why I had those questions. Yeah. So if you're working with influencers anyway, then don't assume you can just have that content just because you've given them some product, but think about whether that content is worth buying as an asset for your brand, that you can then leverage elsewhere.

Yep. Kind of the gist of it. Jessie, I think you also said something really important and interesting, which I really love and wanna kind of like amplify and, and echo and yes. And which is you don't have as much control as the brand. And I really think grown up brands who are doing this stuff need to get other voices talking about their brand.

Like if you hold on so tight, you choke it. And so. You know, we had a client that we worked with on influencer stuff that did sofas and they were so amazing in that they were like, we wanna do colorful homes. We wanna do plant filled homes. We wanna do minimal, like only beige and brown and black home, like, you know, so you got a bevy of assets that appeal to so many different points of view.

And that means that potential customers can understand the sofa in their home. Not just like. The sofa company's point of view of what they think a home would like. They got to see so many different ways that this, this could be styled in someone's home, and there's nothing but benefits for their, for the client.

Well, again, I just keep saying all the ways that there's so much crossover between PR and media buying and, and the way it works in 2022, because one of the things we work on with our clients is.  you, you have to have ads for different personas or different avatars. So you, even, if you think your brand is just for moms, you should try your ads to dads or to mm-hmm  like students or whatever.

Like as long as it fits, like thinking of different angles and marketing messages for different avatars and having different content for them that speaks directly to them and, and their world. It's gonna give you so much more opportunity to scale your media buying, because you're gonna be able to, you know, target this ad to this audience, but this ad to this audience and that's twice as much audience.

So yeah, that's awesome that there's such a, like, there's so many benefits to like working with different types of influences. You get different types of content and then you can do better media buying. So that's. It all feeds into itself. It totally does. Yeah. And that's the thing like this is, I remember I did this paper at university integrated marketing communications and like, it always stuck with me, but it's so true.

Like you cannot have a, truly build a brand in 2022 just through paid social or just through PR if you are doing, using multiple channels, that's where you're gonna really build a brand that like sticks around for the long term. Awesome. So where can our listeners follow you? Find you hear more from you, work with you.

I love all those questions. So I'll start with Instagram. We have go dot Wolf. PR and go dot Wolf dot craft. If you wanna follow either of those Wolf craft has a ton of, we do a lot of like tips on the feed. And so people really like that. We also have a newsletter I'm gonna just normal, not even humble brag, normal brag about it.

People freaking love it. We give really good, actionable advice, case studies, lots of tips, good links. Like we're really proud. We pour a lot into that newsletter. I would say, you know, I love your newsletter too, because you give so many good links and information. So we try and emulate, you know, leaders invest in class newsletters.

The link is in the bio of our Instagram, but it's also@wolfhyencraft.com. You can just sign up on the, on the website and then Wolf PRS website is Wolf hyen pr.com. And if you wanna email me personally, it's Nora Wolf. Hyen pr.com. Perfect. Well, I will put all of those in the show notes so people can find you and I'm sure follow you and keep up with everything you are.

You are sharing with the world. Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. I appreciate all, I took loads of notes and I'm super excited to, to, to hear more from you in the future. Yep. Thank you for having.