Hey Kanika welcome along to the podcast. Hey, thank you so much for having me, Jesse. Excited to have you here. I'm really really keen to dive into this chat. I think we're all gonna learn a lot. So do you want to first of all just introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a bit about your agency?

Absolutely. So like you already said, my name is Hanah. I am the owner and CEO O of Beta, beta growth. We are a conversion rate optimization agency and we specialize actually both in e-com and SaaS, mostly e-com these days. And we help, you know, optimize user experiences so that we can get more bang for your buck, whether it's advertising dollars or organic, s e o, whatever it may be.

We wanna make sure that their experience makes sense so they're converting at a higher rate. You're making more money and everyone's a happy camper. Amazing. So let's dive in. I think we were chatting off, off air and you were talking about a pretty awesome case study that you have that will be a good way for the audience to kind of get an understanding of how conversion rate optimization and landing page optimization works.

So do you wanna tell us all about that? Absolutely. No, this one was a really fun one. It was for a beauty brand. Like, like you mentioned. They sell their hero product, I guess is, is kinda like a hair sh a hair shampoo and conditioner. And they, they like the sustainability aspect of it. They actually sell shampoo and conditioner bars.

So, you know, that is obviously a, a big part of it is you're not wasting plastic with plastic bottles. It is less waste because you're, you're throwing away those plastic bottles. That was kind of their main kind of shtick. But, you know, we, we discovered and, and as we did our research, which I'll get into in a second, that wasn't necessarily the main reason why people were, were purchasing and so interesting for, for landing page optimization.

A big part of what we wanna understand is, What is going on in the customer's mind before they purchase? Right? And, and, and as soon as they click. And landing pages is a big focus of ours because one, it's so controllable. But two, most brands are spending the most amount of money on their paid ads.

And if you put one and two together, you can control an experience that you're spending the most money on. Why wouldn't you put a ton of focus there? Right? So, Do not get me wrong. We absolutely do Sitewide CRO as well, and I'll get into a story about that later. But if you've never. Gone for conversionary optimization before in the past, it makes sense to put your eggs in that basket because you already are, right?

Mm-hmm. So it makes sense to keep going there. Yeah. For these guys particularly that was their product. We wanted to understand, okay, you know, what, what is going on? Why are people clicking? How can we make them purchase at a higher rate, and how can we do that? Convert at a higher rate. How can we make them purchase, convert at a higher rate while also keeping their average order value?

So this wasn't Econ brand, of course. Mm-hmm. One thing that you should be aware of when you are doing cro O is you wanna make sure that your conversion rate, your purchase rate is increasing at the same level as your a o, or at least one of them is not declining while the other one, right. Increasing.

Because what happens then is, hey, my conversion rate boosted by 50%. Amazing. But my AOV went, went down by 50%. Mm-hmm. So therefore you didn't win at all. Right? That's a net ne, it's either net negative or it's just a break even. Yes. Or vice versa. Your conversion rate might have stayed the same or your conversion rate might have declined, but your AOV went up.

Cool. Is that good? You have to, you have to combine both. So we look at revenue procession, which is actually the combination. If you multiply aov, Times conversion rate that gives you revenue procession. And that is a nice way to, to kind of just even it out and say, okay, was this actually successful? Did we have net positive ones?

So I love that because like in, in the agency when we're running ads for brands, like we know the three metrics that are important to roas conversion rate, average order of value, and cost per click. Mm-hmm. So if you are working on your team are working on the average order of value and the conversion rate, then all we need to worry about is.

Bringing in, you know, the traffic at a better price, good quality traffic, obviously, and it's win-win, win. So yeah, I can see immediately how our metrics as media buyers can increase massively when you doing a project like this. Yeah. Exactly. It is a win-win, win. And, and like I said earlier, it's like if, if the customers are happy and, and we make the customers happy with the user experience and landing page experience, and you guys make them happy with the ads, then you know the client or, or the brand is gonna be happy because those costs are gonna come down.

So it, it truly is a win-win, win, win. Situation. So yeah, for, for this brand in particular, you know, we wanted to make sure that we could improve their conversion rates while making sure their A O V also either stayed the same or increased, you know, best case scenarios. They both go up. Yeah. You get people to buy more and they buy at a higher rate.

Yeah. So first we started by just looking at the ads, right? Like what, what are the, the intent. Reasons. What are the reasons why people are coming in and what do they wanna do once they click? Yeah. As media buyers, what you're doing is you're creating that intent, you know? Yeah. Hey, let me tell you why this matters.

Yeah. And so our job is to say, okay, you, they got you intrigued, right? They did a really good job saying, okay, I'm gonna stop my scroll and I'm gonna click into this. Yeah. Our job next is to say, okay, here's why it's worth it. And, and really the main consideration that we always think about is once they click, How do we make their pros list longer than their cons list?

Because all of us are smart enough, right? Like we, it's 2023. We know that when we click on an ad, they want us to buy. Something like that is not, that is not lost on anyone at this point. Yeah. So you immediately come in with a con, right? As soon as you, you l click on a, an ad and you land on the landing page or wherever you land, I'm on the site.

There's a con because the con is, Ooh, I might have to spend money right now. So yes, your job is to say, okay, yes, that is a con. You have to spend money, you gotta part ways with this hard-earned cash that you have, you know, worked tirelessly for, but here's what you're gonna get and here's what you're gonna get and here's what you're gonna get.

And more importantly, here's how it benefits you in your life. So take a look at the ad and we figured out, okay. You know, you guys, you guys go really heavy on the sustainability aspect on, on the product pages where they were sending people and you, you go really heavy on the environmental side of things and, you know, we talked to you and when we, we did kind of a deep dive and, and you said that is the main thing that, that people really enjoy.

But then we're looking at your ad and your top performing ads. And they're talking about how, how luxurious this feels. And they're talking about how this shampoo, conditioner has a lot of suds, right? Like it, it has this really nice ladder experience. They're talking about how nice things smell. So you might think that it's sustainability and, and you know, environmental elements that are making people purchase.

But you have proof right in front of you that that is not the main thing that people are coming in for. So that, that was a big, kind of key point right off the bat is when people click and land on this page, we shouldn't slap them in the face with, Hey, you're gonna save the world because you're being this environmental hero.

We're gonna slap them in the face with, Hey, you're gonna have the most luxurious experience of your life with, with lather and sense, and it's gonna feel so great. Right? And that was kinda the starting point. From there, we said, all right, we got a lot more research to do. You know, why, why else are people?

Are people buying this because they're p dp At the time, they showed the products, they had really beautiful lifestyle images, you know, it, it gave the specs. But again, thinking about a controlled ad experience, they see an ad and it's talking about this luxury experience, and then they go into this product page and it looks nice.

Don't get me wrong, but. Where's luxury experience? Where are the suds? You know what, what about all these other questions I might be having? I'm just gonna go back and use the same product I've used for the last 15 years, right? Like, I, it's not worth me sitting on this page and deciphering this thing. And, and we know that, right?

So we say, okay, that's their, that's what they're doing right now. How do we change that? How do we flip the script completely so we know first we need to focus on this luxury spa, like, you know, beautifully smelling experience. Now we're gonna go on to Reddit, we're gonna go to Cora. We're gonna go and just Google and say when people are purchasing, you know, spa or even, even just, you know, beauty products for hair and personal grooming, what are their questions?

Do they know this particular brand? What about just shampoo bars, conditioner bars in general? What makes them hesitate? What brands are they considering outside of our particular brand? So we spend a whole lot of time going through and we, you know, it's, it's one of those rabbit holes that's kind of fun to go down where you say, okay, what are people saying?

Are they talking a little shit? Okay. How do we how do we kind of battle that on the landing page? What are people really scared about? How do we battle that on the landing page? What do people love about this? How do we communicate that on the landing page and what else are people considering? How do we communicate that on the landing page?

And how are you, you are looking at the whole category at this point, so you're not just looking at for their particular brand, their reviews and their kind of a positive and negative. You're actually looking category wide at like shampoo bars or shampoo in general, or spas in general to understand like what the consumer's kind of navigating, I guess.

Their decision process. Exactly. We wanna understand, you know, before we get into the particulars, we wanna understand the entire landscape. And part of that is is understanding of everything that goes into that buying decision. So whether it's their past habits, whether it's their, their past concerns, their future concerns, the questions, how they even talk about it to each other.

You know, what do they say to each other about, Hey, you know, I love this thing. You should try it out. Because we wanna match that. We wanna mimic it and we want to be able to communicate that as a faculty. As effectively as they do to each other, to them through our landing page. So we start with that category wide research.

Then during that process, of course we look up the brands that we're actually working with. So, hey, do people know this brand particularly? Is there something that they love about it that we can really, you know, go heavy on? Are there things that are repeated? And this goes into the review mining, right?

So I'm sure that many people have heard of this who listen to this podcast. We are, we are big fans of it as well. So if you're not doing review mi mining, you absolutely should. Yeah. And that's just a fancy kind of way of saying go, go review your reviews on your site. What are people saying? What are the common themes that keep coming up?

Are there phrases, very specific phrases that people are saying over and over again? Particularly things that come after phrases like, I love blank. This is the best because. Blank. It is the greatest because blank. Right. Or I wish blank is another good one. Because that tells you what, what they're still hoping for.

So yeah. That's interesting. Do you use any like AI or tools to kind of analyze the reviews or are you doing them manually at this point? We have started to use ai. So the, it used to be pretty manual and then it ended up just being, you know, you'll download the CSV and then do some find searches and stuff like that.

But chat, j p t you gotta get on board, right? Is it, it might not be the highest converting landing page, it can just build from scratch, but it can definitely give you tools that you can use. In your landing pages so you can there's a limit. We found out how many you can paste into chat, g p t, but grab as many as you possibly can.

Throw 'em in there and then basically ask chat, g p t to review the reviews and come up with kind of the top five type seven phrases or, or sentiments that people are, are bringing up. That gives you a very good starting point. Yeah. Awesome. So that is step two. So first we do category research, then we do actual specific brand research, and then we start looking at quick maps and video recordings.

Right. So, so ideally when we're working with folks, they already have had this going for a little bit. So, you know, we have at least a few weeks of data, if not, you know, a few months, maybe even a year of data on whatever particular page that, that we're working on or, or trying to beat. So we're really looking for patterns, you know, what are things in video recordings that people tend to do over and over again?

Are they stumbling on any elements? Are they really reading and interacting with any elements? Is there any weird behavior that, that we can't really understand what's going on? Like, for example, are they just scrolling up and down on the page? Right? That's, that's odd, but that typically tells you there's something missing.

There's something that they can't find and they're looking for and they're looking for it. And then typically they get frustrated. And they leave. So what are these patterns that we're seeing over and over again on video recordings? So we did that for, for this brand and basically wrote down, okay, you know, we saw this 20 times, we saw this 30 times, blah, blah, blah.

Here's kind of our hit list of behaviors That's gonna inform us a little bit more as we start kind of cross-referencing against all these buckets that we're doing a pre-research. And then, and then of course we're gonna look at the quick maps and, and the heat maps, right? So that is what are the elements that people are clicking on the most?

What are they engaging with the most? Because you know that once you have that information, that is the stuff you wanna put on your landing page, right? You, you can't skip that. So if people are looking at ingredient labels, for example, and you see a lot of people clicking into it, Don't skip it, right?

That's not something that you can say, eh, it's not that pretty. We don't need it on the page. Same thing if you see people zooming in, for example, there's some, not this product, but just as a, as a word of advice for people if it's something that has high quality, right? So there's like some level of crafts in the chip that is, that is involved.

Look out for if people are clicking on that zoom button. Because that means that they wanna get an idea of what does this feel like when I'm touching it? How does this look when I'm right up close? And so that will give you a good idea of, okay, what is the specific piece of the content that need to go on this landing page?

So interesting. And so when you are watching those recordings, like that sounds tedious. Like how are you, are you watching hours and hours of recordings of people or are you watching a sample? Or how do you, how do you kind of synthesize that? It is tedious and we do watch a lot of hours of, of video recordings.

So, you know, that is the benefit of having a team. Right. So I, you know, it's not just me sitting there cause I couldn't do anything else, but there are a few of us that are doing it. But we're strong believers in it, right? It, it really fills the gap. So even though it is a tedious, long process, you can speed it up, right?

You don't have to watch them at at one 1%. You can watch them at like four x, that type of thing. You can skip inactivity. And realistically you can get through a pretty solid chunk of video recordings in one to two hours, right? If you're just going and you're just have them running, you can get through a really solid chunk.

So I recommend that heavily for anyone who hasn't leveraged video recordings before. Get, get any software that you like. We really like Mouseflow. It gives you a lot of data which is, which is always helpful. The more data we can get, the happier we are other people like Hot Jar, that that works as well.

Microsoft Clarity, that's completely free. Both of the software, as I mentioned, hot Jar and Mouseflow, they're free tiers as well. And I have no affiliation with them, so I'm gonna tell you that most of the time you don't really need. The big tiers for these, so particularly Mouseflow hot Jar does limit some functionalities, so, It can be really tedious if you don't pay for it.

Mouseflow, you know, I think you get maybe 500, maybe a thousand. I don't know. You get some, some decent number of recordings per month for free. Wow. So everyone should have it on there. Like at the very least, you just have it on there because the real, the reality of it is you're not gonna have time to go through 30,000 recordings.

So why are you paying for the tier that gives you 30,000 recordings, right? Yes. Like if that's all you're using it for, there's obviously advanced features and all of that, but for most people, Yeah, you can get a hundred recordings and if you can watch them all, you are, you are ahead of most people. Yeah.

How amazing. It's, yeah, it's good. It's good data. And it's weird too, right? It's like a little creepy at first, but it's so enlightening. What are people. Doing on my site. What do I think is so normal and so obvious and everyone's doing something weird with it. Yeah. That you'll, you'll zero in on pretty quickly.

Amazing. Such a great tip. Alright, so video recordings is next. So we've done now at this point category research. Now we've done brand research. Now we've done the actual heat mapping and video video recording. So now we put it all together. So we say, all right, this is what people found really important in the category research.

This is what people found really important for the brand itself. And here's what they do really well. And then here's what we found. People are, are finding most important or confusing or whatever with their actually behaviors. Now we need to figure out what is the best user journey for them as they hit that landing page.

So, We back it up, we say, all right, they see this ad. This is the context they're getting. And now knowing all these different little inputs, How do we need to present that information? What order do we do we need to present that information in? So it's really cohesive in their brain is are we basically reading their minds?

That is, that's the ultimate goal. Yeah. Is we say, oh my God, they're in my brain. So we put that all together and that gives us our user journey. So they're gonna see the ad, stop the scroll. It's gonna be a beautiful ad made by Jesse and team, and then they're gonna gonna click through, they're gonna land on this landing page.

And as they grow through the landing page, it's gonna be as if we are understanding ev every question they may have answering their questions before they even have them. And ultimately we're making sure that they don't feel the need to go and check out other competitors, right? They don't feel the need to go and Google and say, oh, what about this?

Or what about this? We are gonna put all their burning questions for them on that landing page. Right? And that's exactly what we did. So, so for these guys in particular we figured out pretty quickly through all this research that scent was massive, right? Like more so than the efficacy of the product sent, that people just were obsessed with how good these things smelled.

So we, we. Spotlighted that multiple times. We had really great images. We had, you know, it was, it was high up in our hierarchy and then we of the page and then we, you know, showed it a few times throughout the page. One of the biggest things for us with that one was just using copy. Right? And, and copy is such a powerful thing because you can illustrate vivid.

Pictures in people's minds and make them really feel like they are using your product. Yeah. And you do it right. Wow. And sent though, like it's one, the, one of the main things we can't convey physically on a website. Yeah. So how do you do that? It's by using really illustrative copywriting. Right? So, you know, there's an element of it that can be very fun.

So you wanna build that brand affinity at the same time. So, you know, I think some of them were A little silly. The brand was a little silly. So it's like, you know, it's like froing through a, a, a field of flowers, you know, without, without pants on or something like that, you know? So there's a little humor to it, but you can imagine yourself froing through a field of flowers.

So you know, that's gonna smell very kind of floral and fresh. Great. That's exactly what we're going for. So having these really descriptive you know, pieces of information alongside of the images and alongside of their choices allow people to say, okay, cool. Like, that sounds like me. That sounds like exactly what I want.

I might not be able to pick it up in my hand right now and smell it for myself, but I have a very, very good understanding of what is going to arrive in the mail. That's really my press purchase. So that was a, you know, that was a really big unlock. Alongside of that, you know, using all that research that we had done, there was a lot of skepticism around hair types.

You know, will this work for my hair in particular? You know, how is this one type of formula working for everybody? How much money am I saving? Like, this feels kind of expensive to me. What's the difference between going out and just buying something at, you know, the drugstore pharmacy for, for my hair?

You know, and, and what is like the big difference, right? Like, what do I expect with this afterwards? So in this landing page, we, we took all that information, combined it, put it in the right order. And interestingly enough, it worked very, very well and it worked quickly. So with landing page testing, I, I often tell people it can take two or three or four swing before it works.

And I, I'm, I'm very. Adamant that you shouldn't throw away a landing page if it doesn't work the first time, because it's, it's just not how anything works. Right? Like, do you throw one ad up and it doesn't work and you say, oh my God, I'm never gonna advertise again. Like, this is stupid. No, exactly. No, no one would do that.

Landing pages are the same thing, and frankly, there is a lot of investment that you should put up front to give it the best shot immediately. But you should also analyze it and see. What's happening, right? So oftentimes, more often than not, there's just a little bit of adjustment you need to make.

There's just a few things you need to tweak or, or just remove or, or just update that pushes it to the point where it is gonna perform for you. So advice for everyone out there who's gonna pursue landing pages. Don't throw it away after the first time. It can take a few, but you won't get there. We got fortunate with our process and this one actually worked the first time.

So I will tell you what the conversion rate was. It, it started at a 3.2% and the test version that we made, what up to a 5%? Whoa. So that was a big, big jump in conversion rate. Not doubled, but but pretty darn close. And then the A O V stayed almost exactly the same. Wow. So in that instance, we didn't lose aov.

They, they kept that same volume that they were purchasing. And for this one, it was actually interesting. I really didn't know if that was gonna happen because you have to buy multiple. Bars to get free shipping. So I was like, oh, you know, are we gonna lose a o v in a big way? Luckily it stayed exactly the same and our conversion rent went way up.

So our r p s went up by a, a very significant amount and it ended up adding about 300 k estimated annual revenue for them. Wow. The thing with that 300 k is that it is an underestimate because the thing with landing pages is it is all based on your ad spend, so you can pump up your ad spend, and that is actually going to improve, you know, the, the overall net new revenue that you're gonna make.

This is just based on conservative numbers, so based on however many sessions they're getting to one of their campaigns, That's what we bet, bet this on. This could add easily a million, you know, 1.5 to their, to their top line. Well, the incredible power of it is like, as a media buyer, thinking about it, like giving twice as much, almost twice as much data back to the algorithm for every visit.

Yeah. In terms of conversion data means that your advertising overall is gonna. Perform. It's not just gonna perform like the amount better by the amount that there's the extra conversion, but that extra data's gonna like help the algorithm to perform better, allow you to scale so much quicker and allow you to test things more quickly.

Everything's gonna perform better when you've got exactly more conversions flowing through. The site for every visit. So that's exactly it. Yeah. And a lot of the learnings that you get from landing page testing you can start using in everything else you do. Right? Of course. Oh, we figured out that sensors are so huge.

Should they just start going really like way heavier on sense for, for their ad hook probably, right? Yeah. It's like, here are the hesitations, here are the main things that people were scared about. Could that be an ad hook? So it, it, it goes beyond just landing page. It goes beyond just like the ad campaigns, email, marketing, you know, customer service, sms, whatever it may be.

Yeah, there's so much learning that can happen cuz there's so much information that you're putting in front of people just at the same time. Yeah. So when you run this test, do you, your, you'd work with like the agency or media buyers to kind of plan like what traffic they're gonna send to it? Or is it that all the traffic just gets pushed like 50% of the time through the variant?

Or how do you kind of do it from this? Yeah, so we, we approach testing in a very scientific way and I, I know that No hate for people who don't do this, but I don't love it. So we, we structure our, our campaigns and we work with the media buyers or the agencies to do this. We structure our campaigns so that it is one campaign, one broad, as broad as we can get that they've proven out before.

One broad audience and one creative actually. And a lot of people say, what the heck? I'm never gonna run a campaign like that. Like I have tons of different creative in there. I have multiple audiences what have you. The problem with running a test campaign in that way to test a landing page, Is that you can never replicate the algorithm, right?

You can never say, Hey, Facebook, send exactly this audience and this creative to this landing page every single time. You can't do it. If we could do it, All of us would be billionaires sitting on our yachts. Right. But that's not how it works. Mm-hmm. Instead we need to figure out a way to make it a very clean test and actually kind of handicap the algorithm so that we know that the same people seeing the same thing are landing on the landing pages and getting split 50 50.

So we set up our Texas campaign, so it's one steady, basically variable throughout the whole thing. Campaign adset. And then we will split them in the backend. So we will split them using Google Optimize or, or VW or whatever testing platform we're using. So that, again, same audience, same creative is getting sent through from Facebook.

Facebook can't determine and say, no, I choose you to go to that lens. Yeah, I choose you to go to that pdp. We take Facebook out of it and say, okay, on a clean test without any crap from Facebook, which one performs better? And so once you know that it's a winner, you know that it is a winner on a completely one-to-one basis.

If you put this in front of people and you put this in front of people, more people convert on this one. Yeah. Right. And yeah, so we work with a media buyer, that agency, to set it up that way. And then once you have a proven landing page, that's when you start testing exactly how you would otherwise you start introducing new audiences.

Okay. What does the, you know, what does our costs look like when we add these audiences hitting this landing page? Yeah. Which ones work? Does it work with this creative? Yeah, exactly. So then you just do your regular testing structure from there. But first you gotta do it in a very clean way because otherwise you might not be able to ever do it again.

Yeah. And you've got too many variables and you don't know which one it was. Yeah. Correct. That's really interesting. And so how much would you typically put in terms of budget towards that test? That's a really hard question to answer because it depends on each brand's specific cpm, CPCs, all of that.

Right, right. For landing page testing, we, we try to recommend like an, a minimum of about 5,000 people entering the test. So it can be expensive for some brands. That is for sure. That being said, you know, we've also seen success, excuse me, with, with as low as like 3000 people entering the test.

Mm-hmm. Sometimes a little bit lower, but. So if you're, if you're an individual brand or you know, if you're just doing this on your own, give it a shot. The biggest thing that we can't predict is the Delta performance. So the reality of it is you might only have to run a test for two weeks, and you might only have to get like 1200 people to each variant because the performance is so different, right?

If one just crushes the other one. You don't need 5,000, 10,000, 50,000, a hundred thousand people. Mm-hmm. Your test to get statistical significance, you need two weeks and one being vastly different. Yeah. And so that's, that's another reason why we, particularly at Diabetic growth, we, we really believe in big swings.

Yeah. So we will often as I've described here, we'll do be doing multi-variate testing. We're gonna be testing many sections, many things at the same time. Yeah. Because we can layer that data, right. We can layer the qualitative video recordings on top of the data insights and the click maps, so that even though we might not know the most granular reason why people converted more, we know five or six or seven other reasons why people converted more.

Right. So you are sa you, so you've got the existing page is the control and then the new page has a whole ton of things that are different. It's not, we just changed the button color, the classic. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And so for the audience's benefit then to get 5,000 people through a test, I would say rough maths, you probably need about $5,000 in ad spend.

Yeah. And that's, yeah, and it probably, you could probably work out how many conversions you need to Yep. To kind of work it out and work it back from that. So if you're for sure there's, yeah, there's a lot of, like your luxury brands online calculators. Just go on the online calculator and say, okay, you know, what, what is my timeline that I need?

Or how much, how many sessions do I need to get statistical significance? A lot of those online calculators will let people figure that out pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're like a high volume already, quite a high conversion rate brand, then you might need a little bit less budget to test. But if you're a luxury brand with quite a low conversion rate, you're gonna, it's gonna cost a bit more to test, but the upside is potentially a lot bigger too.

Awesome. So, You. You have an agency and you do this for people, like what would you recommend to people just getting started if they wanna start playing around with this themselves? Can it be done kind of in-house or do you need an expert? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think, you know, when you're just getting started, you should absolutely dive in and, and start testing things yourself.

There's a, there's a degree or there's a level that you can handle it yourself as long as you have some time, right? Like the biggest, the biggest investment you have to make is a time investment. And it is a realtime investment. Like we talked about, video recordings. You, you need time to look at those.

And unfortunately, like AI is not there yet, so But sometimes it's as easy as just throwing it on your tv, you know, hook up your computer to your H D M I and throwing on video recordings on a weekend and sitting back and just watching it, right? Mm-hmm. So if you have that time to understand, okay, where are people having issues?

Like, when are people dropping off? When are people clicking a bunch of stuff and getting frustrated and leaving, that is the easiest way you can get started with at least starting to come up with insights and ideas of, Hmm, people don't like the placement of this, or Hmm, people are maybe, you know, confused about this.

Reddit, right? Like doing that process. I spoke through going through Reddit and going through Quora, understanding what people are confused about and what people are asking. You can do that on your own. Mm-hmm. Start putting that into your site, playing with that. And then there is a, a wealth of information all over the place that has best practice you know, CRO tests that you can run, things like that.

So I would say supplement this research that you're doing, supplement your video recordings and your click maps and, and doing the research, you know, on, on the, on the web with some of the best practice tests that you're seeing, if it makes sense. So if you say, oh wow, this person posted this great test where they added, you know, This guarantee section to their product page because, you know, people, people were scared.

It's a very high value product and they were scared that, you know, if if they're, they got it, they're just stuck with it. Hmm. Yeah. That I'm seeing a lot of people go through my product page and it's expensive and could that apply to them and that I'm seeing reviews or I'm seeing, you know, comments on, on Reddit, people are saying is it worth it?

It's, you know, it's kind of expensive. So all signs point to, hmm, that could work because that's exactly what my people are scared of. Can I test adding this section to my product page? Yeah, go do it. I think the, the difficulty that can occur with with doing it yourself is you still need copy skills because you need to communicate that well and efficiently.

You still need to design skills because you need to, how are you gonna display that? And then in many cases, you also still need development skills because if you're, if you're testing especially on your site, You have to, you have to test a one-to-one test, so you have to get it coded up so it can launch and properly showed a 50% of people and, and not 50% of people.

Landing page builders can be a little bit more simple, so if you're using you know, anything like a drag and drop builder to test landing pages, development as, as difficult if you're a decent designer. If you're a decent copywriter, then yeah, absolutely you should go for it. Yeah. Interesting. So you have on your team, like all of those experts, that's the beauty of working with an agency, right?

Like Correct. You've got a copywriter, you've got data analysts, you've got developers. Yep. We have all those people. And, and the other benefit of working with an agency in that sense is we are, we're looking at other brands similar to yours or dissimilar to yours and seeing what trends are, are occurring because user experience is something that changes over time, right?

Like the way that all of us use the internet and how all of us shop is not the same as it was five years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. Yeah. So having kind of a pulse is helpful. Exactly. And I think as well, like the, the danger that founders or marketers, Fall into is that they think people use the internet the way they use the internet, and that's often not true.

Yeah. So I think looking at how real people use it and watching those recordings is super, super important there. And not having any assumptions off the bat. Wow, this was such an awesome conversation. I learned so, so much. Is there anything else you wanna share with the audience? I guess, and as well, let us know where we can follow you and keep up with your your findings in the space.

Absolutely, yeah. We are coming out with more content coming soon, so you can always find that on our website, BedaBedagrowth.com. It's like if you're from Boston and you're saying the word better. Beta. Beta. Beta. Yeah. Beta, beta growth. You can find us there. You can find me on Twitter. I'm @Kanika_misra

I will share all of that content there. I share some ideas, some learnings, all of that good stuff on Twitter as well as on LinkedIn. So I would recommend if you're. Looking for some ideas, you're looking for some advice. Don't feel, don't hesitate to to reach out and feel free to follow me wherever you can find me.

Amazing. We'll link that all in the show notes and I'm sure you have lots of new followers. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming along. Thank you so much for having me. I I look forward to seeing c r o just blow up because of this podcast. Yeah, it's a new big thing. Definitely.